Notion CEO Ivan Zhao wants you to demand better from your tools

Good day, and welcome to Decoder! That is Casey Newton, founder and editor of Platformer and cohost of the Onerous Fork podcast. That is the second episode of my productivity-focused Decoder collection that I’m doing whereas Nilay is out on parental go away.

At the moment, I’m speaking with Notion cofounder and CEO Ivan Zhao. I’ve adopted Notion for fairly a while now — I’m a giant fan, and a serious a part of my workflow for Platformer is definitely constructed on prime of Notion’s database characteristic. So I used to be very excited to get Ivan on the present to debate his philosophy on productiveness, how he’s grown his firm over the past decade, and the place he sees the house going sooner or later.

If you happen to’ve by no means used Notion, you’ll be able to consider it as an all-in-one productiveness suite corresponding to loads of the collaboration and so-called “second mind” apps available on the market — from the extra business-y mission administration instruments like Asana and AirTable to the extra DIY note-taking variants like Anytype and Obsidian.

Notion sits fairly comfortably within the center right here, since it could actually do what loads of these sorts of apps do very nicely, and multi functional package deal. On the similar time, it permits for a fairly substantial quantity of customization, which has made it in style each for particular person productiveness energy customers and for corporations giant and small.

However Notion began as a really totally different piece of software program, and its evolution over the past 12 years or so has concerned a good quantity of trial and error, one main reboot, and loads of huge selections. In my view, what actually units Notion other than so a lot of its friends is Ivan’s deep ardour for design and an virtually relentless drive to make merchandise that he sees as helpful and aesthetic in equal measure.

You’ll hear Ivan early on on this dialog reference LEGO: the toy bricks are the central inspiration for Notion, which employs “blocks” as a metaphor for configurable templates that assist you to use Notion in a fairly various set of the way. Assume the whole lot from easy notes and lists to advanced databases and workflows.

However Notion, like a lot software program today, is evolving. Now, the corporate calls itself the “AI workspace that works for you,” and also you’ll hear Ivan recount intimately how the launch of OpenAI’s GPT-4 proved to be a giant turning level for him and for Notion. The corporate launched an OpenAI-powered AI product a lot before the competitors, even earlier than the launch of ChatGPT, and it’s added a number of recent AI-powered options previously few years.

Ivan himself can also be fairly excited in regards to the capabilities of AI; he mentioned he makes use of it in his free time to find out about new topics, and also you’ll hear discuss in depth right here about his imaginative and prescient for AI brokers that more and more do an increasing number of give you the results you want inside apps like Notion.

However a standard theme with the AI business proper now could be the very giant hole between what AI can truly do right this moment, and what so many individuals hope it could actually do down the highway. So I actually needed to ask Ivan how we would get to this future he predicts, how lengthy that may actually take, and what productiveness and information work seem like if AI delivers on a few of these lofty guarantees.

Okay: Notion CEO Ivan Zhao. Right here we go.

This interview has been evenly edited for size and readability.

Ivan Zhao, you’re the co-founder and CEO of Notion. Welcome to Decoder.

So at a excessive degree, describe Notion for us. If listeners haven’t used it but, what’s it? What does it do?

Properly, we make all-in-one productiveness software program. Folks use Notion for every kind of issues, from taking notes, collaborating on initiatives, managing paperwork, managing their information base, and, most just lately, we launched a calendar product and mail product. You employ Notion, so you must describe what Notion is.

I feel you simply did a extremely good job describing it. I do use Notion, which is likely one of the causes I needed to speak to you, as a result of each time I discuss to a CEO whose merchandise I exploit, I get to provide them product suggestions, which is thrilling for me.

So do you see Notion right this moment as extra for groups than people? Is that the path it has discovered?

We designed Notion for groups. So one other approach to describe Notion is that we name it LEGO for software program. Possibly it’s value explaining the intent just a little bit. If you happen to’re an organization, to your group, you need to use a dozen totally different instruments to get your work carried out, and our objective is to consolidate these instruments into one field and provide the LEGO blocks that energy all these use instances. Not solely are you able to do all of your work in a single place, however you may as well use these LEGO blocks to create and customise your individual workflows.

You and I’ve talked a good quantity about LEGO over time. What appeals to you about that design? Why is it such a great metaphor for what you’re making an attempt to do with Notion?

Properly, as a result of it didn’t fairly exist with software program. If you consider the final 15 years of [software-as-a-service], it’s largely individuals constructing vertical level options. For every purchaser, for every level, that resolution form of is sensible. The best way we describe it’s that it’s like a tough plastic resolution to your downside, however after getting 20 totally different laborious plastic options, they form of don’t match nicely collectively. You can not tinker with them. As an finish consumer, you need to soar between half a dozen of them every day.

That’s not fairly proper, and we’re additionally impressed by the early computing pioneers who within the ‘60s and ‘70s thought that computing must be extra LEGO-like moderately than like laborious plastic. That’s what acquired me began engaged on Notion a very long time in the past, after I was studying a pc science paper again in school.

You needed to make instruments that will snap collectively the best way that LEGO blocks do.

We need to make instruments that amplify human creativity. LEGO are artistic. LEGO are stunning, and most software program most likely will not be as a lot.

Say just a little bit extra about the way you had been drawn into this world. Had been you at all times any person who was inquisitive about productiveness instruments? Or did that come to you later in life?

No. I feel it’s a misunderstanding about Notion. Notion is productiveness software program, that’s what we do as a enterprise, as a product. However the ethos of that is what I simply described; it’s the LEGO ethos. It’s perhaps value describing the historical past of the computing business just a little bit, as a result of that impressed Notion.

Within the ‘60s and ‘70s, ‘60s, the hippie technology who took acid in San Francisco thought, “Properly holy shit, this room-sized calculator, should you put a monitor in entrance of it, it may be an interactive factor, it may be a brand new kind of medium that helps you suppose higher, helps you clear up issues extra collaboratively.” That’s why the primary technology of private computing began within the Bay Space.

That technology of thinkers and pioneers thought of computing type of like studying and writing. Like we went to highschool for a number of years, however not all people can learn and write English or German or no matter language you converse. Writing is a device. Sure, you is usually a poet, you will be writing essays, nevertheless it’s a really malleable medium.

So, they got down to make computing malleable and tinkerable, and all people might their very own software program. Then, within the ‘80s, the Invoice Gates and Steve Jobs technology took computer systems to the mass market and put a pc in each house, on each desk. They form of froze computing into this software format. If you consider purposes, every software is type of like a mini-prison of computing. You can not change it that a lot. There are software makers who’re engineer programmers, after which there are software customers who’re like the remainder of us, the individuals who use productiveness instruments daily.

So after I was studying these papers about these ‘60s and ‘70s individuals, I assumed, “Holy shit, the world that we’re dwelling in is sort of a prison-like world.” If something, the SaaS of the previous 15 years has been for even smaller jail cells, as every software can solely do a tiny slice of issues. So, that doesn’t make it proper for me, and the shopper feels the identical means. It doesn’t make sense that to your each day job, you need to soar between 20 totally different instruments to get some work carried out. The common firm or common enterprise makes use of 100-plus totally different SaaS instruments. The fragmentation is apparent, even for the IT division.

So, there’s one other saying in enterprise: you both bundle or unbundle. So, Notion’s squarely within the bundling enterprise. Our job is to bundle SaaS right into a one-ish productiveness device to your core each day wants, so we will unleash LEGO-like creativity for you.

It’s an attention-grabbing dialog. It makes me consider kitchen devices, since you see the identical stress there, the place there are some kitchen instruments, like I don’t know, a stand mixer, or an immersion blender, that you need to use to make many, many various sorts of recipes. After which there’s the garlic press, which is sweet for mincing garlic and nothing else.

It seems like what you’re saying is by the point we acquired into the 2010s, productiveness was only a bunch of garlic presses, and also you form of needed to come back alongside and say, “What if we simply had a stand mixer and you may make loads of recipes with one factor?”

A pal of mine used this metaphor, much like what you mentioned. Have you ever seen avocado cutters?

An avocado cutter is made only for freaking avocados. You can not do the rest. Compared, a kitchen knife is a device that you need to use tons of or hundreds of various methods. You, as a human, amplify it as a result of you will have a way. So, to create software program that’s extra like a kitchen knife, or LEGO, that’s what pursuits me, and pursuits us as an organization.

However you’ll be able to’t blame the business, as a result of if you consider it — should you rewind again earlier than SaaS — the world was operating on Microsoft Workplace for a great stable 10 to twenty years. SaaS, with the web as its distribution, permits new companies to be created. The pure approach to go about distribution and new companies is to discover a actually exact resolution, creating these avocado cutters and garlic presses, and yow will discover consumers on the opposite aspect.

So, as we transfer into right this moment, do you consider your self as competing immediately towards Microsoft Workplace or Google Office? Is the imaginative and prescient that huge, or is it one thing totally different?

We coexist with them, as most of our clients are nonetheless utilizing Google Office or Microsoft Workplace. They use their id service, they use their mail and calendar apps. We now have a mail and calendar product presently as a consumer. A startup can totally run on Notion. You don’t want to make use of Microsoft 360 or Google Docs, nevertheless it’s not as mutually unique.

Our candy spot is extra on the issues that you might want to put in a database. One other means to consider it’s like, what’s Microsoft Entry however for the 2020s, and AI native? Most SaaS is type of like a relational database, storing some type of system file of your organization, and one workflow on prime of that. That’s the half that neither Microsoft nor Google touches right this moment.

There are spreadsheets, however there will not be many database use instances. We need to consolidate and commoditize that, and provides individuals the LEGO of these database use instances, akin to mission administration and ticket monitoring. Some corporations use them for CRM, or managing software trackers. For reporters, you’ll be able to handle all of your leads and the tales. These are database use instances.

Proper, and I do do a few of that in Notion. Let me ask you in regards to the flip aspect of constructing a product that has a lot utility baked into it, which is that generally after I’ve talked to individuals who have tried Notion, they are saying, “I didn’t know the place to start. I felt intimidated by the clean web page.” It appeared like there was a studying curve.

How do you consider that problem, and attempt to deliver individuals alongside into understanding what Notion is supposed to do?

Yeah, like early LEGO, you get bricks. Then in a while, LEGO created methods and bins, and now LEGO works with Marvel and F1 to create actually specialised bins. In some sense, Notion as an organization, we’re in the course of including extra bins, so individuals don’t have to begin from an empty set of bricks, with no instruction handbook.

You possibly can think about, like, “Hey, I desire a Method One race automotive. I like that LEGO field.” If you open it, you will have your automotive ready-made for you, so you can begin driving it. You play with that LEGO toy instantly. However should you don’t like sure components of the automobiles, as a result of they’re constituted of LEGOs, you’ll be able to change them. That has at all times been our philosophy, and we’re doubling down on this method as a result of it really works.

Fascinating. I really feel like a key problem that a few of the different huge productiveness instruments like Microsoft Workplace have had over time is bloat, proper? The app has 1,000,000 options, and every particular person one is essential to love 0.5 % of the consumer base, so you’ll be able to’t take away it.

But in addition, the app simply will get tougher and tougher to make use of over time as a result of it’s so filled with buttons, menus, and widgets. Can Notion keep away from that? And have there been instances if you’ve frightened you may be there already?

It’s undoubtedly tough. If you wish to assist extra energy, you might want to have extra issues. There are two methods to method it. The basic means is simply including that characteristic, within the laborious plastic means. We’re taking a extra LEGO method, so including the brick, and the brick can be utilized for various issues. In some sense, it is a a lot better method.

Received it. So, making an attempt to supply fewer discreet, very slender options, and extra summary options that may be prolonged in numerous alternative ways.

Like LEGO methods, on one finish will be toy automobiles, and on the opposite could possibly be Barbie dolls, roughly utilizing the identical bricks. If you happen to take a look at the commonest productiveness device, should you simply put your designer thoughts on that, there are 20 or 30 items there. There’s some type of desk, some type of relational database characteristic, some charts, some commenting, web page enhancing, and collaboration.

These 20 issues are core to all collaboration and information work. So, we attempt to do our greatest job to make them pleasant, approachable, and break them into items, and provides them to you, both as a chunk or as part of a package deal.

What bricks inside Notion are hottest right this moment?

We begin with bricks round paperwork and information bases. We’re well-known for our block-based editors, and that’s from the early days. That’s like 2019 into 2020. After which databases are our most vital brick right this moment, as a result of, like I discussed, most information work is simply fancy file cupboards within the cloud. Information work runs on file cupboards, and databases are the guts of that.

Yeah, the database is my primary Notion brick that I exploit. In order that is sensible to me.

Folks don’t uncover that [easily]. We have to do a greater job of getting individuals to grasp its energy. It’s basically what an engineer does daily is wire collectively a relational database with views on prime of that. How will we democratize that? That’s our function.

Properly, it’s attention-grabbing, as a result of if I had by no means heard of Notion, and also you got here to me and also you mentioned, “Casey, you must construct a database to unravel this downside,” that’s like telling me that I ought to add one other room to my home. I don’t know the place to start. I really feel like I must name any person and ask for assist.

However in observe, you click on a few buttons, and in my case, set up the Notion Net Clipper, and I’m nicely on my approach to having a database. So, I don’t truly suppose the educational curve is that steep, however I might perceive why any person may be intimidated by it if that they had by no means tried to try this form of factor.

Yeah, not each child grew up liking LEGO as their primary toy. I feel Notion resonates the perfect with individuals who wish to construct, they usually are usually entrepreneurs, tech individuals, and the spreadsheet gurus in every group. They like Notion, they usually set it up for the remainder of their teammates.

That’s at all times useful when you will get individuals inside the corporate doing the gross sales half for you.

You understand what? AI can do that fairly nicely now, as a result of what AI is sweet at is gluing collectively LEGO bricks. AI can write code. Writing code is simply one other means of gluing collectively your course of and workflows, and our newest product basically will get AI to be this profitable particular person to assist arrange your Notion workspace for you, and that’s one other approach to onboard clients. That’s a model new approach to unlock that we’ve added previously yr to 2 years.

I’ll say that it has been very highly effective for me in loads of totally different merchandise. Having the ability to use the in-app AI to say, “How do I do that?” And truly getting a solution. As any person who has spent loads of time in assist menus over time, digging round and never discovering what I used to be in search of, that has been tremendous helpful.

And it’s not simply serving to by educating the human to do it. An increasing number of, AI can simply do it, proper?

That’s the largest distinction, truly. If you consider what’s occurring in software program proper now, software program is basically individuals offering the instruments for people to make use of, and an increasing number of corporations are realizing, “Wait a second, we have now this new factor known as a language mannequin. It’s like a human mini-intern in a field, and we must always design our software program to show AI tips on how to use it so people can ask AI to do the work and use the instruments, and people can do far more issues with it.”

I need to ask you a few of the Decoder questions that Nilay would ask if he had been right here. Notion was final valued at $10 billion almost 4 years in the past, if you raised your final spherical of funding. What has allowed you to continue to grow with out elevating extra funding? Are you worthwhile?

We’re worthwhile. So, worthwhile, rising quick; the enterprise is doing nicely.

Good. How does that really feel?

It feels good. I might say the bigger driver of our on a regular basis exercise is the truth that the software program business is totally altering with AI. It feels just like the AI period of the previous two years simply makes the SaaS period really feel like sleeping days. It’s a much bigger driver of our execution technique than simply operating a worthwhile enterprise.

I’d like to listen to extra about how that’s working. Is it the case that executives see AI altering numerous workplaces, they usually suppose, “We have to determine our model of this,” and they also come to Notion to assist them determine it out?

Or is it that your product groups are so excited in regards to the prospects that you simply’re simply now seeing them construct options, that are then drawing in new clients?

I might say clients are lagging behind for the time being. Most individuals don’t know. It occurs with each new know-how. You don’t know what to do with it. The client will not be going to inform you. It’s the individuals who play with this, construct issues, and perhaps have an creativeness a number of years into the long run, or perhaps a few months sooner or later, at this level. AI is altering so quick. So loads is from ourselves, simply enjoying with AI and realizing, “Holy moly, it is a very totally different factor. You possibly can clear up issues that you simply couldn’t clear up earlier than with basic software program.” Now, what are you going to do with it?

There’s truly an attention-grabbing story. My co-founder, Simon Final, and I obtained early entry to GPT-4. So that is like late 2022, just a little bit earlier than all people else. We thought all people else would get early entry to this. We thought, “Holy shit,” as a result of in comparison with GPT-3, GPT-4 is a brand-new factor. It’s prefer it has actual clever reasoning in it. So we locked ourselves in a lodge room for a couple of week, and simply tried to hurry out the primary Notion AI product. We truly launched a month earlier than ChatGPT occurred. We had been enthusiastic about what you are able to do with this new kind of fabric. That’s for Notion, that vitality comes from there.

What number of staff do you will have over there? How huge is Notion right this moment?

Excessive three digits. So, 900, perhaps approaching 1,000.

How do you consider firm measurement? Do you see a world the place there are 5 instances that many staff? Or do you need to hold it someplace round the place it’s proper now?

I feel there’s no proper reply for absolutely the quantity, however there’s a solution for the density of the expertise. The denser the higher.

You want having fewer, however extra gifted individuals versus extra individuals?

I wish to have fewer, if we will do the work with fewer individuals, and there’s much less communication overhead. Folks have extra possession, and folks can work issues throughout boundaries. That’s simply higher total. The corporate strikes quicker. The small automotive can flip corners a lot better than a giant automotive, and we at all times name Notion a small bus. We attempt to hold the bus as tight as attainable.

What’s your org chart? How is Notion organized?

Pretty basic. It’s me and my co-founders, Simon Final and Akshay Kothari. Simon remains to be coding daily. Akshay runs our product and design org and analysis. Our chief know-how officer, Fuzzy Khosrowshahi, runs all the engineering. Our chief income officer, Erica Anderson, is chargeable for gross sales, advertising and marketing, and shopper expertise. And we have now our chief finance officer, Rama Katkar, and basic counsel, Hasani Caraway. That’s our basic org chart.

So that you didn’t really feel the necessity to reinvent the wheel there or do any innovating, simply form of create basic firm divisions and let individuals go do their factor.

Basic firm divisions and high-quality individuals hold the bus tight. In order that lets you be worthwhile.

How do you make huge selections? Do you will have a framework you utilize? Or is each determination totally different?

Properly, there are the standard one-way doorways and two-way doorways. With a one-way door, you attempt to transfer quick, and with a two-way door, you suppose just a little bit extra rigorously and sleep on it. These are pondering quick and sluggish varieties of issues. I’m fairly detailed. I wish to work on the notes, so there’s a sure downside I’m good at. Personally, it provides me vitality, and I’m inquisitive about engaged on the bottom within the trenches with all people.

There are particular components, although, like I can’t run our finance group. Our CFO, Rama Katkar, is basically superb. She takes care of that. However for sure issues — like design and product, engineering, advertising and marketing, and branding — I wish to become involved.

You’ve at all times struck me as a product CEO. I feel from the primary time I met you, it appeared to me what was most attention-grabbing to you about your organization was the device itself that you simply had been constructing, versus the market alternative, or one thing like that.

I constructed Notion as a result of I needed to construct Notion, not as a result of I needed to begin an organization or enterprise. I needed this factor to exist.

Let me ask you yet one more determination query, about one of many greater selections you needed to make. So in 2015, you determined to close down the 1.0 model of Notion, relocate to Japan, and finally relaunch Notion 2.0, which is type of the Notion that we consider after we use it right this moment. How did you make that call?

Properly, you need to, in any other case you die, proper? At that time, it was like, “We’re constructing on the flawed factor, the flawed basis,” and you recognize what the proper factor is, nevertheless it’s simply going to take you perhaps a yr to a yr and a half to construct the proper factor. We had been an organization of about 5 individuals, and we had been going to expire of cash.

The one approach to do it was to shrink it again to simply me and my co-founder, Simon. So, we began over. Japan is an effective place as a result of it’s cheap, and we have now by no means been there. It was attention-grabbing, and we might simply give attention to constructing.

I do know different founders who’ve been in that state of affairs, and that’s the second the place they gave up, as a result of they thought, “You understand what? Possibly I might consider one other factor to construct right here, nevertheless it appears exhausting. It’s going to take a yr. I’ve already put a yr and a half or so into this app. I gave it the whole lot I had. It didn’t work.”

What was it that made you say, “No, we’re going to maintain occurring this. We predict that there’s a imaginative and prescient right here that we will truly obtain”?

The objective was by no means to begin a enterprise, like I discussed. The objective was to construct this factor, and the factor didn’t fairly exist. Notion is likely one of the few bundling, consolidating software program productiveness instruments on the market, and it didn’t fairly exist on the time. Software program for LEGO doesn’t exist. So if I began an organization, I needed to do the identical factor. Why don’t I simply reset and return to Simon and me so we will stretch the cash a bit longer?

Really, I simply acquired again from Kyoto final week, the place there was a tech occasion, and the Kyoto mayor and I did a hearth chat and talked about this story. They needed to speak about utilizing Notion for instance of how we will mix tech and Kyoto’s craft custom. As a result of we’re additionally impressed loads by the craft individuals in Kyoto, how they dedicate their time to constructing one thing, and never only for cash or fame.

That’s so loopy. I used to be truly in Kyoto final week, too. I used to be on trip and went there for the primary time, and I had an unbelievable time. Kyoto’s superb.

You get the sense that it’s just a little bit slower tempo. Folks care about what [they’re making], proper? Folks really care. That’s the factor. It’s the principle factor. It’s not the enterprise, it’s not their different environment.

Oh completely. I imply, you go to those temples which can be 1,000-plus years previous, and the care and the craftsmanship that they put into them is actually inspiring. It’s deeply stunning. It’s very related to their spirituality, and their faith, tradition, and historical past. So I might perceive why a founder would go there and take loads of inspiration.

Yeah, as a result of it’s a bit slower too, you’ll be able to give attention to digital areas, on computer systems.

Yeah, it’s not like San Francisco, with our go-go nightlife, our Waymos, the occasion scene, all of that.

Or New York, even, much more of that.

Another of those. This isn’t strictly a Decoder query, nevertheless it spiritually seems like a Decoder query that I needed to ask you. What’s the greatest productiveness device that you simply use that isn’t made by Notion?

I like these chatbot merchandise: ChatGPT, Anthropic’s Claude. It’s fairly superb, particularly when speaking about options, just like the dialog mode. I really like these. I wish to be taught from them.

The voice mode, yeah. It helps me be taught loads of various things. Once I’m making espresso and ready for the water to boil, I can simply discuss with this factor for just a little bit, like for 2 minutes. It’s good.

What do you ask it about? What do you wish to find out about?

Oh, every kind. What’s most up-to-date? In Japan, I used to be studying a guide about Marshall McLuhan.

Yeah, media theorist and theologian. Lots of his ideas are laborious to interpret, so it’s higher to simply work by way of them with a language mannequin that may assist information you. It’s the perfect tutor, really. Schooling must be very totally different. Hopefully, it will likely be very totally different a number of years from now.

I feel so. This isn’t fairly a tutoring use case, however I simply need to say, after I was in Kyoto final week, we had been within the neighborhood and had a while to kill, so I simply opened Google Maps, and it form of opens to the place we’re, and I took a screenshot. I simply despatched it to ChatGPT, and I mentioned, “Inform us a bit about this neighborhood.”

It gave me a historical past of the neighborhood. It instructed me in regards to the cool eating places, cool espresso retailers, a museum, and locations that we might stroll to. I imply, it really was pretty much as good as I can think about getting from any information, and it was so simple as importing a screenshot. The entire thing took 15 seconds. It was wild to me.

Yeah. One use case I’ve, if I’m going to a well-known architectural constructing, is that I say, “Hey, I’m at this place, inform me about it. I’m taking a look at this half, a nook of this constructing. Inform me extra about why that’s the case,” proper? As a result of if it’s well-known sufficient, it’s most likely a part of the corpus of coaching. So, the language mannequin is aware of about it.

You possibly can simply take a really guided tour, and also you don’t want one other particular person; you’re simply speaking together with your machine.

Properly, that looks like a great segue into Notion and AI. We’ve talked about what Notion is, the way it’s modified. Notion now payments itself because the “AI workspace that works for you.” So, what does an AI workspace imply to you? What would you like it to be for us?

If you consider our technique through the SaaS period, it’s bundling and consolidating a bunch of various instruments for information work into one place. What’s modified previously couple of years is that it now has all that mushy information of LEGO in Notion; you can’t solely present the instruments, however you may as well assemble them as your AI teammates. They’ll do the give you the results you want.

We’re lucky to have that information work LEGO in a single place so you’ll be able to piece it collectively in a really attention-grabbing means. As a result of one finish can take notes for you, the opposite finish may also help you handle, triage initiatives, and write paperwork. These are basic items, however an increasing number of, with extra LEGO and smarter fashions, you basically rent Notion as your AI teammate. That’s the long run that we’ve been constructing, or constructing extra towards.

I bear in mind one time I used to be assembly with you, and also you simply launched a few of these AI instruments, and also you had been displaying me that Notion AI was taking notes about numerous conferences. So that you had been in a position to dip into conferences on the firm that you simply didn’t personally attend, and simply type of rapidly make amends for what your coworkers had been speaking about.

I assumed, “That’s tremendous attention-grabbing.” That’s the type of characteristic that I can think about loads of CEOs wanting, however earlier than this level, they haven’t had that degree of visibility into their very own firm.

We simply launched three separate merchandise a few months in the past, like Notion AI for Work, together with the following model of this enterprise search product you’re speaking about. So, together with that was the launch of our AI Assembly Notes product, so all of your conferences will be recorded and transcribed.

So basically, your organization has a collective mind of what’s occurring, and you’ve got all of the AI information employees on prime of Notion that can assist you transcribe the assembly notes and reply no matter questions you will have. It’s fairly attention-grabbing what you are able to do with the know-how now.

Of all of the AI options that you simply’ve added thus far, which of them do you personally discover probably the most helpful?

I exploit AI assembly notes. Nearly each assembly, besides this one, I file, and I exploit that for conferences so I can share notes with different individuals. I exploit it for myself, as a beginning place to dump my ideas. And so I can later bear in mind to ask AI to show the transcription into writing. English is my second language, so I’m not the quickest author, however AI can do higher writing than I can if I simply dump out what’s on the highest of my thoughts by way of the AI transcription characteristic.

That’s actually attention-grabbing. There’s loads of discuss proper now about AI, and whether or not it would change employees, or total workflows, or capabilities inside a corporation. You’ve talked right this moment about AI having the ability to function a type of teammate.

Do you suppose that AI and Notion will get to some extent the place executives will rent fewer individuals, as a result of Notion will do it for them? Or are you extra centered on simply serving to individuals do their present jobs?

We’re truly placing out a marketing campaign about this, within the coming weeks or months. We need to push out a extra amplifying, optimistic message about what Notion can do for you. So, think about the billboard we’re placing out. It’s you within the heart. Then, with a device like Notion or different AI instruments, you’ll be able to have AI teammates. Think about that you simply and I begin an organization. We’re two co-founders, we join Notion, and abruptly, we’re supplemented by different AI teammates, some taking notes for us, some triaging, some doing analysis whereas we’re sleeping.

So, abruptly, we’re a group or an organization of 10 individuals. Then the startup can run a lot quicker. That’s the imaginative and prescient we need to push extra in the direction of the world. So, extra of an amplifying drive, moderately than a zero-sum drive.

What timeframe do you suppose that arrives? Does that really feel prefer it’s virtually inside attain? Or do you suppose we’re going to want to see a number of extra analysis breakthroughs earlier than that form of factor turns into attainable?

From somebody who’s constructing with this daily, I feel the potential is just about there. There are totally different spectrum complexities of data work. The mannequin is kind of sensible. I might say what’s missing is the plumbing, the toolings that unlock the potential of the mannequin. That’s basically what Notion is doing, with the LEGO blocks being the plumbing and tooling. So, that’s one constraint.

The opposite constraint is simply how individuals use it, and the way individuals plug it into their workforce. Paperwork is typically a great factor, and generally it’s a foul factor. On this case, I feel it’s truly a great factor, as a result of it slows issues down just a little bit. It provides individuals the time to adapt and to be taught with this new device. I feel it’s good. So, the potential is kind of there, and if not, each three months you get a brand new one. The traits simply hold coming, proper?

On the similar time, I feel the largest flaw within the AI fashions that we have now right this moment is that they’re not dependable. They don’t reply the identical query the identical means 100% of the time. So, if I’m counting on it for mission-critical stuff, if it’s one of many 10 “individuals” at my firm, and I inform it to go seize some details and figures, and it simply type of hallucinates the flawed one, that’s actually unhealthy.

If that had been an actual employee, I might, I don’t know, put them on a efficiency enchancment plan or one thing. So how do you consider reliability as a problem to what sorts of providers you need to supply individuals?

Yeah, it’s undoubtedly a problem, and I might say it’s getting higher normally. I might say the perfect, closest psychological mannequin is treating the language mannequin identical to a human, identical to an intern. People make errors. Your belief degree, if you inform one other human one thing, is that there’s no assure that this human can’t mess it up or inform one other particular person, though you don’t need them to, proper?

So, we’re lastly constructing belief this manner. Folks’s expectations for software program are increased as a result of software program, for the longest time, was at all times actual — there aren’t any bugs. It at all times does precisely what it’s instructed. AI is a brand new kind of software program. Our expectation hasn’t been set on tips on how to take care of this but. I feel as extra individuals get used to it, as we alter our habits round it and firms change their workflows round it, I feel we’ll discover an equilibrium that’s amplifying the higher a part of this know-how and coping with its shortcomings.

Yeah, I feel the podcaster, Dwarkesh Patel, mentioned one thing like, “An AI right this moment is healthier than an intern on day one, however worse than an intern on day 5.” As a result of on day one, they’ve all of the information of human historical past, they usually can form of dazzle you with their capabilities.

But in addition, they’ve bother studying, and it’s laborious to point out them tips on how to do one thing as soon as after which have them do it reliably each single time. Whereas a human being might try this. So, I’m personally very curious, when is the purpose when an AI is healthier than that day-five intern?

I feel all corporations, together with Notion, try to determine methods to inject reminiscence and studying into this “intern.” Within the coming quarters, you will note merchandise with this baked in.

Okay, now my ears are perking up, as a result of it seems like we’re getting just a little little bit of a preview. Do you need to inform us what you’re engaged on over there?

Just like the marketing campaign I simply talked about. A few months in the past, we launched Notion AI for Work. It has AI assembly notes and deep analysis that can assist you draft paperwork. For the upcoming product, you’ll be able to truly now think about every one is an AI intern and might do a specialised factor, proper? With the upcoming product, you’ll be able to truly create totally different flavors of AI interns, AI teammates, that dwell with you in your workspace. That’s so far as I need to share. Properly, you’ll see extra quickly. And Notion AI can do the whole lot you are able to do, the whole lot a human can do.

I just like the sound of that. Let me ask you about my product request, and you recognize this request, as a result of I’ve had it for some time now. Mainly, if you first began including AI options into Notion a number of years in the past, I put on this request, as a result of each hyperlink that has ever been in my publication, Platformer, is saved in a Notion database. In lots of instances, that features the complete article textual content, and what I need is to have the ability to have a dialog with that individual database. It could be so helpful for analysis and brainstorming columns.

On the similar time, it’s tons of of hundreds, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of phrases. It’s not the form of factor that you may simply throw right into a context window and simply let me have that dialog. So, my query, Ivan, is the place are we on this dream of mine?

To have the ability to have a dialog with all of your hundreds of articles in Notion?

It’s most likely already there, as a result of the methods have been invented. You’re right that you simply don’t have to suit the whole lot right into a context window. You possibly can index the whole lot, embed the whole lot, and piece data out as you want it. There’s one other approach that’s been in style previously yr or so, known as device use. It basically teaches the language mannequin, your agent, to know tips on how to use search.

So, you probably have a query that’s not within the context window initially, the agent can go there, identical to a human can, to seek out extra details about it. It should take just a little bit extra time round-trip, however finally, it offers you what you need. So, new methods will make the use instances you’re describing higher.

I just like the sound of that. And also you do have an Ask Notion characteristic already that I think about can entry some aspect of what I’m speaking about, and loads of these things is simply form of on the net, so there are different methods of accessing it. However I simply at all times suppose, “Man, if I might have a lightning quick means of simply chatting with this database the best way I might chat with a coworker, that’d be tremendous cool.”

Oh, it ought to already be in your Notion workspace. Completely happy to stroll you thru the brand new enterprise search we simply launched. It’s good for that.

Okay, nice. All proper, we’ll troubleshoot that offline. OpenAI has come up a few instances right this moment. You’re employed carefully with the corporate. Just lately, it introduced that you need to use ChatGPT to create shows and slide decks. All the huge labs are engaged on these full-stack digital assistants that they are saying would possibly sometime be capable to do something a distant employee would possibly be capable to do.

Do you suppose that they’ll get there within the subsequent, let’s say, 5 years? And what function do you see Notion enjoying in a world the place AI’s capabilities are quickly increasing that means?

Yeah, a technique to consider it’s on the spectrum, whether or not it’s extra private, business-to-consumer flavored. Or it’s like business-to-business, team-first flavored.

I might say most AI labs’ merchandise are presently extra private assistant-flavored. It may make it easier to do work or make it easier to cheat in your homework. Often, B2C tends to be winner-takes-all, or there are few winners, and I feel it is sensible for labs like OpenAI to go actually laborious in that path. Notion squarely is a B2B firm. Our product, our enterprise mannequin, is for different companies, and inside B2B, you’re required to make totally different tradeoffs.

There are such a lot of totally different subcategories, and it needs to be team-first to begin. That’s why our AI teammates, our AI agent and AI system, essentially dwell in a group house that you simply or the remainder of your organization’s staff dwell in. That’s the angle we’re taking. In my view, there will probably be many various winners in B2B AI, as a result of B2B normally will not be winner-takes-all, and you might want to make very totally different tradeoffs.

That’s attention-grabbing. I’m nonetheless unsure I completely perceive. Say a bit extra about what this business-to-business AI world seems like, and why it’s that it’s going to have many winners, whereas business-to-consumer perhaps doesn’t?

Properly, you’ll be able to give it some thought within the skilled setting. So if you consider all information work, it’s attorneys, accountants, programmers, and buyer assist, they usually’re all totally different. They require you to make just a little little bit of a distinct trade-off; that’s a distinct kind of AI agent. You possibly can already see this within the first-generation AI agent. They have to be specialised and must plug into totally different contexts.

On the buyer aspect, you simply need to chat together with your AI chatbot. It’s very common. That’s why on the B2C aspect, within the earlier technology, there have been iPhone and Android. There are two issues, largely, and within the B2B SaaS world, there are literally thousands of totally different corporations and tons of of various classes. So, whether or not it’s a software program or AI product, you need to make very totally different trade-offs. You can’t be an airplane and a submarine on the similar time, proper? That’s why within the skilled setting, you see a lawyer agent and a monetary agent, they usually behave very otherwise. They should behave very otherwise, in comparison with your private assistant that you simply get up to daily and might chat with.

Proper now, you promote AI instruments as an add-on in what you are promoting and enterprise plans. I’m curious if this hurts your margin in any respect? We hear loads about how costly and compute-intensive, resource-intensive AI methods will be to function. Is it a problem to combine these resource-hungry instruments into your present subscription?

We truly just lately merged AI into our fundamental plan, as a result of greater than half of our gross sales at the moment are from clients who need to purchase our AI product. So, it is sensible to simply simplify the pricing buckets, to simply embody AI into the whole lot. It does make the margin not so good as pure SaaS, however no. It’s so highly effective, and folks admire it. And nonetheless, the corporate is money circulation optimistic, so our CFO loves that, regardless of it being a distinct margin profile.

We’ve already seen some corporations transfer towards usage-based pricing for AI, which, as a shopper, I hate. I don’t need to make micropayments to ask ChatGPT a query, nevertheless it does look like that’s perhaps a greater enterprise mannequin. What do you consider the tradeoffs there?

I don’t suppose individuals have figured it out, particularly within the enterprise setting. The primary technology is type of like buyer assist. With buyer assist, you’ll be able to attempt to map what they name final result resolution-based pricing. That is sensible. Then there’s form of the second technology, which is out proper now, and that’s coding. With coding, there’s a seat base, however should you use loads, you need to go to usage-based pricing. That form of is sensible, as a result of by way of trade, it’s a piece of labor. You get your file, you get your software program on the finish of the day. So individuals admire that, and it saves programmers a lot extra time than truly writing the piece of software program themselves.

Information work is nebulous. With information work, you’ll be able to’t put a value on it. It’s this chunk of a doc, however how a lot is it value? You possibly can’t actually quantify that. And the way good is a chunk of data work? How good is your product spec? You possibly can’t put a greenback signal on it. So, it’s a lot tougher for a general-purpose information work product like Notion. That’s the factor, the entire business must determine it out.

That’s actually attention-grabbing. What do you would like that AI would make attainable in Notion that isn’t fairly attainable but?

You possibly can at all times get cheaper, quicker, and smarter, however you recognize the practice is coming in that path, so it does require you to construct an organization otherwise. I feel that is what the software program business is realizing proper now.

I by no means labored through the dot com period. That was just a little bit earlier than me. Folks say that in that period, the online customary modified on a regular basis, each couple of months, or each three months it’s totally different. And there was Intel and the Moore’s Regulation period, the place you may simply anticipate that 18 months later, the following CPU would drive no matter software program you needed.

AI seems like that, however on steroids. Like each three months, the following mannequin can do what you couldn’t do earlier than. So it does require you to actually change the way you construct software program and construct merchandise, and the way you construct an organization. A few issues: One is as a result of it’s always altering, and the mannequin itself doesn’t like too many restrictions; you might want to construct a harness simply round the proper locations. It’s virtually like should you construct an excessive amount of across the practice observe, the following practice comes, and also you simply made what you simply constructed out of date, proper? You must construct parallel to the practice observe. That’s primary.

Quantity two is that the language mannequin will not be deterministic. It’s totally different from basic software program engineering. The metaphor I like to make use of is that basic software program engineering is like constructing practice tracks or constructing bridges. It’s Newtonian physics. The whole lot’s predictable, and should you can think about it, you’ll be able to construct it. Typically it takes three months, generally six months, however finally you’ll be able to construct it, proper?

With this language mannequin factor, it’s squishy and it’s natural. The analogy I really like to make use of is like brewing beer, proper? You can not inform the yeast, “Hey, my beer is gonna style like this. Please ferment your self. Change into like that.” It’s a must to channel what’s within the mannequin. The very best you are able to do is create an atmosphere, therapeutic massage the information, therapeutic massage the context, after which hope for the perfect.

So, this requires a way more iterative method. You can not come out of your imaginative and prescient or buyer wants first. It’s a must to come from what the know-how provides you — what the yeast, what the beer, provides you. So, actually enable your group to be extra empirical, extra experimental, much less of this sort of waterfall, basic means of specing to code. It must be extra like incremental, iterative. All these add collectively and drive you to design, engineer, and develop merchandise otherwise.

Does it change the best way that you simply rent? Does it change the best way that you simply construction groups? How does that strangeness that you simply describe translate into a distinct firm?

Folks have to be extra okay with ambiguity. Folks want to like ambiguity. Folks have to be extra experimental. The boundary between roles goes to be even higher. Like at Notion, we’d rent a designer who can code, as a result of should you’re an engineer and designer in a single, you’ll be able to suppose much more ambiguously, extra fluidly, proper?

AI time pushed that even additional, as a result of the design and product sit aspect by aspect with engineers. Oftentimes, what you need can’t be constructed, so you need to actually strive a bunch of various issues. That’s why you see loads of product demos get to love 60 to 70 %, however by no means grow to be an actual product. That’s as a result of it’s good for making demos, however to get to manufacturing B2B software program, you might want to be actually good. It’s worthwhile to be dependable. Oftentimes, you by no means get there.

I take into consideration this loads within the context of those voice-based assistants. What I principally use them for is setting a timer or asking what the climate is, these very deterministic issues. And the businesses which can be constructing [voice-based assistants] try to combine these new AI-based backends. However it’s extremely laborious, as a result of if the consumer remains to be utilizing the product, they’re nonetheless going to need to set the timer, and if it goes from doing it accurately 100% of the time to love 93 % of the time, that’s a a lot worse product.

However I feel as people, all of us be taught what this kind of know-how is greatest at. It’s if you’re having a dialog, like when utilizing the voice mode, that you really want it to be ambiguous. You need it to go to totally different locations. That’s a characteristic, not a bug. I feel we — as a complete business making software program with AI, and we as an viewers who use it — haven’t found out the stance but. It should take a while to determine this out, like the perfect materials to make use of.

Properly, I need to finish simply by asking what you suppose Notion seems like just a little bit into the long run. I can’t ask you about 5 years from now, as a result of I don’t suppose anyone has 5 years’ value of visibility into something.

But when I might perhaps ask for like two years from now, what do you hope Notion is doing that it’s perhaps not doing right this moment?

I feel, to return to what we simply talked about, that the character of software program is altering. It’s altering and evolving from only a set of instruments to this natural matter, to a device that may do some give you the results you want, proper? The center of this firm is in SaaS software program. The basic software program period permits individuals to construct instruments, to permit individuals to make use of LEGO to create no matter instruments they need.

As a result of the character of that software program is altering, what we care about lets you create AI teammates that can assist you take a few of the most repetitive information work you don’t love to do. If we will understand that, there are loads of implications. The subsequent technology of builders goes to run an organization very otherwise — and I care about fixing that downside.

All proper, nicely, Ivan, thanks a lot for becoming a member of me right this moment.

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