Obsidian’s CEO on why productivity tools need community more than AI

Welcome to Decoder! That is Casey Newton, founder and editor of Platformer and cohost of the Onerous Fork podcast. I’ve had a whole lot of enjoyable guest-hosting just a few episodes of Decoder whereas Nilay is out on parental depart this summer time. If you happen to listened to the final couple of Monday exhibits, you already know I’ve been doing a sequence with founders who’re centered on productiveness.

That is my third and, sadly, final time becoming a member of the present throughout the break, however I’m very enthusiastic about this episode. At the moment I’m speaking with Steph Ango, who’s the CEO of Obsidian.

Obsidian is a note-taking and productiveness app that matches into the same “second mind” area to Notion, the CEO of which I interviewed right here on Decoder final week. However Obsidian differentiates itself with a very uncommon method to its enterprise. It nonetheless needs to be your total private information base — to carry all of your notes, hyperlinks, recordsdata, and different data — but it surely works in a really completely different means.

In Obsidian, recordsdata are Markdown-based, saved domestically by yourself gadgets, and utterly free to make use of. You’ll hear Steph say that he doesn’t even know what number of customers Obsidian has or how sticky the software program is, which is kind of remarkable amongst startups I cowl.

Obsidian does cost a subscription charge for entry to sure options, together with cross-device sync, model historical past, and net publishing. However it’s nonetheless a mannequin that feels decidedly old school for software program that’s making an attempt to maintain up with the present world, and so I needed to ask him about these selections.

Steph’s position as CEO can also be uncommon, as a result of though Obsidian remains to be a really younger, very small, and really flat group, he’s truly not one of many founders. He joined in 2023, when cofounders Shida Li and Erica Xu introduced him in based mostly on his expertise together with his former startup, Lumi. He was additionally an enormous Obsidian fan.

So I actually wished to ask him about that, too, as a result of I suspected his solutions to the large Decoder questions on group and decision-making had been going to be fairly uncommon for a Decoder visitor.

And in a single attention-grabbing twist, I requested Steph why, when so lots of his rivals appear to be racing to stuff their productiveness merchandise with AI options, it didn’t seem to be Obsidian was all too wanting to comply with go well with. His reply, I assumed, was fairly illuminating.

Okay, Obsidian CEO Steph Ango. Right here we go.

This interview has been flippantly edited for size and readability.

Steph Ango, you’re the CEO of Obsidian. Welcome to Decoder.

Thanks, Casey. I’m glad to be right here.

What’s Obsidian? How does it work and who’s it for?

If you happen to actually need to boil it down, Obsidian is a note-taking app. Lots of people use it for writing their ideas down, journaling. Lots of people are college students who like to trace their progress by way of faculty, or do their analysis notes. There are authors, guide writers, huge followers of RPGs who love to make use of it. What makes Obsidian distinctive is that it kind of works like Wikipedia, in that the core unit is a hyperlink between your notes. So, if I used to be to jot down about my expertise in the present day in my journal, I’d say, “I used to be on the Decoder podcast with Casey,” and every time I discussed one thing I’d type a hyperlink out of “Decoder.”

It’s okay if that hyperlink shouldn’t be pointing to something but, however later down the street, I’d create a word for Decoder as a result of I need to monitor among the attention-grabbing interviews I’ve listened to on that podcast. So over time, your net of information turns into better and you’ve got extra nodes in your Obsidian. Essentially, once you open the app, it really works rather a lot like Apple Notes, Evernote, Notion, or another related form of app on the market.

If you joined the corporate in 2023, you mentioned, “I can’t overstate how life-changing Obsidian has been for me. It has essentially improved the way in which I feel. I need to see what occurs if extra folks acquire that superpower.” What do you’re feeling like is the superpower that Obsidian gave you, and why did no different merchandise make you’re feeling fairly the identical means?

I’ve been writing notes and journaling for over 20 years, and I’ve used a whole lot of completely different apps. This concept of eager about the world like your personal private Wikipedia was actually highly effective. I had form of kludged collectively just a few completely different apps to make one thing that form of labored that means. Plenty of Wiki-based software program already existed, however most of it was designed round publishing a full Wiki to the net versus utilizing it on your personal private notes.

When it got here out, the founders of Obsidian, Shida [Li] and Erica [Xu], had already put within the degree of polish that was not there within the glued collectively prototype that I had. It was immediately one thing that made sense to me. It made sense additionally as a result of the info is saved is on this very sturdy format that folks can personal, which known as Markdown. You get tremendous followers of Markdown and… for individuals who’ve by no means heard of it earlier than within the viewers. I’m unsure who —

I feel we most likely have a whole lot of Markdown customers within the Decoder viewers, however for individuals who have possibly not seen it but, how would you describe it?

Mainly, the oldest file sorts we now have, going again to the Nineteen Sixties, are plain textual content recordsdata. Markdown takes the thought of a plain textual content file, which is simply uncooked textual content, and means that you can add primary formatting. So, if you need some textual content to be daring, a heading, a desk, or a listing, it means that you can use easy characters like punctuation marks to point what’s going to be daring or italic, for instance.

The ability right here is that the info is saved on this quite simple format. So, we now have this view round your information that you could maintain your information for a very long time and also you, or your children’ children, your legacy, no matter it’s, will be capable of learn it 100 years from now. Possibly not one of the notes matter in any respect, or possibly they’ll be curious. However what if that information might be preserved over the long run? We predict that going again to among the easiest codecs that exist and providing you with that management over your information is extra more likely to persist over time. So, that’s one among our philosophies.

Going again to your query, I used to be actually excited in regards to the rules coming collectively. To the purpose of the way it made me suppose in another way, I feel after getting this idea of hyperlinks and concepts that may be networked collectively, you can begin to type extra sophisticated, advanced, or attention-grabbing ideas than you in any other case might. I don’t learn about different folks, however I can solely have two or three completely different concepts in my thoughts directly. But when you can begin to create these little constructing blocks of concepts, you may mix them in attention-grabbing methods. Your concepts change into these little Lego blocks that you could interchange and blend collectively, so you can begin forming some attention-grabbing and complex ideas.

I’d love to listen to an instance of once you felt such as you had been in a position to try this in Obsidian. You’ve written on-line about your note-taking follow. You described it for us a minute in the past, speaking about how you retain a every day journal and as new characters and concepts are available in, you’ll hyperlink them and construct them up over time.

I’m interested by that subsequent step. Is there a time when all of that added as much as allow you to make one thing you possibly wouldn’t have in any other case?

Properly, there are the initiatives I’m eager about. Although I’m the CEO of Obsidian, I see it as a way to an finish. I like to jot down, so I write a whole lot of quick essays on my weblog. Plenty of the essays got here from marinating in Obsidian, the place I can debate with myself whether or not an concept is nice or not. I’ve this essay known as “Ache Is Info.” I used to be going by way of a fairly robust time just a few years again, and I learn this guide by [Haruki] Murakami, What I Discuss About Once I Discuss About Operating. It’s this autobiographical story about working, and I got here throughout this quote… I’m making an attempt to recollect it on the fly, but it surely’s one thing like, “If you join a marathon, you already know that you just’re signing up for ache.” “Ache is inevitable, struggling is elective.”

That concept was actually attention-grabbing to me as a result of I used to be going by way of a painful time. I used to be eager about how touching your hand to a range provides you a sign that [doing] that’s a foul concept, however that’s data. So, I used to be beginning to consider data, ache, and the connection between these issues. You possibly can see how these concepts are forming out of skinny air, out of various inspirations that I’m going by way of. And what I like about Obsidian is it provides you this place to method it in a really freeform means and join completely different ideas you is likely to be eager about.

For me it’s on this philosophical realm, however for different folks it is likely to be with biology or language studying. My companion speaks Chinese language, and I’ve been eager to be taught Chinese language, so I’m beginning to convey collectively these completely different concepts. I’m into woodworking and I’m all the time studying new abilities, new particulars, or new instruments that I’d need to use, and I’m doing analysis about that. All of these issues can coexist inside this digital place, which is form of bizarre since you might have a connection between a woodworking instrument, a metropolis I went to in China, and the idea Murakami was describing, all these issues are simply components on this soup, and you could possibly begin to provide you with concepts that you just simply wouldn’t have considered in any other case. Possibly that’s enlightening.

One thing that lots of people worth about Obsidian and related apps is that they are often engines for serendipity. You collect strings within the method you simply described, after which within the means of clicking again by way of your notes or utilizing different instruments contained in the app, you revisit concepts and so they spark new ones otherwise you see connections that you just may not have in any other case.

Undoubtedly. I feel that one of many advantages of this method is that it’s fairly freeform. What I’ve run into with different instruments or different approaches, like a bodily journal, is that you just’re fairly constrained by the truth that it’s simply items of paper you flip by way of. It has the limitation of being a 2D floor. Or, a whole lot of apps use folders or tags, whereas right here you don’t need to know what one thing goes to be about till later when the connections type. And also you’re free to have 700 tabs open inside Obsidian and be doing this loopy, It’s All the time Sunny thoughts mapping with the purple thread all over the place. It means that you can do this the place one thing with a extra top-down hierarchy would make it tougher.

You’re not a co-founder of Obsidian. You had been introduced in as CEO in 2023. How did that come about, and what had been you introduced in to do?

The app got here out in 2020, and I came upon about it with the primary model. It was proper at the start of the pandemic, and I feel all of us had been going stir-crazy. There was this second in time the place a whole lot of attention-grabbing instruments popped up as a result of everyone was like, “What am I going to do with all this further free time the place I’m hanging out at house?” So, I began utilizing it straight away for the explanations I described earlier than. It made sense, and Obsidian is tremendous customizable, so you can also make plugins, you can also make themes, and you may modify it in actually important or small methods. I used to be simply beginning to put all these group issues on the market. I used to be working a unique startup on the time, and I used to be simply placing these items on the market as a result of I used to be making them for myself and other people began utilizing them.

Shida and Erica are wonderful engineers who met on the College of Waterloo. They’re geniuses by way of engineering and group administration. What I used to be bringing to the desk as a group member was a way of design and product that they’d rather less of. As a result of the Obsidian group is so sturdy, among the issues I used to be making had been getting a whole lot of adoption, and I used to be collaborating with different folks in the neighborhood. They came upon about that and wished to place a quote from me on their entrance web page.

So, we began chatting, after which we began speaking about enterprise. They began telling me in regards to the enterprise mannequin and among the challenges that they had been coping with. We simply stored speaking for a pair years, and I used to be utilizing Obsidian on a regular basis. It was simply the primary app that I had. Once I offered my earlier startup, Lumi, I began to suppose what can be my subsequent factor. I used to be eager about constructing one thing else or beginning a brand new firm, and I simply was spending all my time in Obsidian utilizing the app, and I spotted I used to be having a lot enjoyable utilizing this instrument.

So, I pitched to them, “What if I might come on board and enable you to guys?” At first, it took the form of contract work, working with them as an advisor and dealing on the 1.0 launch that had this new design that I constructed. Shida is an unimaginable engineer, probably the greatest I’ve ever labored with, and finally, he simply wished to deal with that. It created this good steadiness. We’re a very small crew. We’re seven full-time folks, so there’s one thing good in regards to the steadiness of the completely different strengths all of us have. Everybody can form of do every little thing, however on the similar time, every individual has their core strengths.

For me, it’s round design, consolidating the true essence of Obsidian and making an attempt to speak it out to the world. Then, as a result of we’re solely seven folks, there are a whole lot of hats to be worn, whether or not it’s accounting, authorized, all these are random issues. Additionally, I had a whole lot of expertise working startups, so I feel that was useful.

You talked about the plugin ecosystem. It appears to me that plugins have been one of many principal ways in which Obsidian has grown, each in its function set and in constructing options which have attracted new customers. What was the origin of plugins and the way have they fueled the corporate’s progress?

In a means, plugins are what enable us to remain small as a result of there are such a lot of capabilities that folks need which can be pretty slender and can solely be helpful to 1 % or much less of our consumer base. You see this on a regular basis with apps which have been round for a very long time, the place the function set simply retains rising and rising. Then the app turns into bloated, sluggish, and laborious to make use of as a result of there’s simply an excessive amount of performance in there.

For brand spanking new customers, it turns into extraordinarily complicated. I feel initially, it was this defensive transfer in opposition to having to implement all these options, to mainly say, “Right here, you go do it.” And since it’s constructed on net applied sciences like JavaScript and CSS, lots of people know the way to construct issues for it as a result of they know these languages. You don’t must know Swift or be a cross-platform app developer to know the way to make a plugin. You can also make one thing actually easy in a matter of minutes or hours relying in your degree.

So, I feel the preliminary reasoning was that this can enable us to not construct every little thing ourselves. However then, the inventive issues folks provide you with are all the time pushing the envelope of what our API ought to be capable of help and the way the platform can enable much more flexibility. I imply, out of some thousand plugins that exist, solely a small portion that basically make sense to be within the core app. A few of them do find yourself turning into one thing we discover, like when 80 % of the consumer base is counting on one plugin.

For instance, proper now we’re engaged on this factor known as Bases, which lets you view your notes in a database-type format, and there are a selection of plugins that do one thing like that within the Obsidian group. So, it’s a sign to us that that is truly actually vital and must be within the core app.

What are another plugins which have simply been actually well-liked or took the app in surprising however profitable instructions?

Among the hottest ones are quite simple. Any individual who’s on the crew in the present day, Tony Grosinger, wrote this plugin known as Superior Tables, which was only a method to simplify making tables in Obsidian. We’re speaking about one thing very primary, however rows and columns had been troublesome to do earlier on, and in case you’re somebody who needs to reside utterly within the Markdown world, they’re form of difficult to make. We ended up hiring Tony, and he constructed that performance alongside one other developer who — mainly everybody we’ve employed or labored with was as soon as a group plugin writer or crew developer. That makes it very easy for us to start out bringing the correct people who find themselves enthusiastic about Obsidian on board.

There are plugins about theming, styling, altering fonts and colours. Lots of people get pleasure from that customizability and wish to have the ability to make this journal area their very own. There are a whole lot of plugins that enable you to combine with different providers. So, if you need your calendar in there or one thing like that, you are able to do that. There are integrations into one million completely different apps on the market. If you wish to be doing all of your duties and to-do lists in Obsidian, there’s an entire bunch of plugins that enable you to with that. The cool factor about that’s in case you’re eager about Obsidian since you need to do world constructing on your RPG tabletop group, you are able to do that and also you don’t need to have the whole calendar performance inside your Obsidian. You possibly can simply use the plugins that need to do with that.

Plugins had been actually the very first thing that introduced Obsidian to my consideration. I’d been utilizing Roam Analysis, which I do credit score for inventing a whole lot of the present note-taking paradigm, however Obsidian simply developed a lot quicker because of plugins. I’m curious what you probably did to draw these first builders. Was it so simple as having a very good API that was accessible early on? What was it that the corporate did?

I feel it’s a mixture of issues. One, like I discussed, is that the languages and framework are quite simple for anybody to make use of. Anybody who’s executed any form of net improvement would just about know the way to construct a plugin, so it’s very accessible to a whole lot of builders.

The values of Obsidian, simply as a pure note-taking instrument, are very aligned with what builders like. So, a whole lot of builders use Obsidian as their note-taking app of selection as a result of it’s personal and it makes use of this Markdown format because the core method to write textual content. As a result of it’s so customizable, it attracts builders after which builders use all of it day lengthy. We have now revealed APIs that just about will let you do something with the app, and there’s a whole lot of documentation. So, it’s that mixture: a whole lot of builders are utilizing it, it’s simple to make the plugins, and we added the API very early on. In case you have that itch, you may scratch it in a short time. If Obsidian’s not working the way in which you need, you may change it very quick.

Not too long ago, I interviewed Ivan Zhao of Notion for Decoder. You talked about Notion is one other product on this area that generally folks would possibly select over Obsidian. It strikes me that whereas your merchandise do among the similar issues, they’re designed very in another way. Notion is about pixel-perfect polish and exquisite interface components. Obsidian, by default, can look a bit extra like a terminal. You’re taking notes in Markdown, and it has extra of this DIY, virtually hacker ethos. Is that intentional and do you suppose it impacts the sorts of customers you entice?

I feel the basic distinction between Obsidian and Notion is that Notion is a cloud service. It’s an app that interfaces primarily with software program as a service-type cloud service. You must both be in your browser or on an app, and also you connect with a supply of fact that’s within the cloud. With Obsidian, all of your information is native. So, in case you’re not on-line — in case you’re on a airplane or one thing like that — you all the time have entry to your information. That distinction shapes an entire bunch of different issues.

For instance, it might be actually laborious so as to add plugins to Notion as a result of it could actually’t make it simple to run arbitrary code on its cloud-based platform, whereas with Obsidian, it’s fairly simple. So, there’s this basic cut up that happens due to the structure. It’s the identical with issues like theming, design, and the way a lot consumer interface customizability there may be. I don’t know if this can make sense to anybody who’s listening, however after I was 11 or 12 years outdated, there was Winamp, Winamp 2 was popping out, and I used to be all about making themes and issues for Winamp, which was a music participant that you could possibly customise.

It actually whipped the llama’s ass. I’ve to say that.

Completely. I feel there’s a little bit of that taste in Obsidian. Obsidian is sort of well-liked with a whole lot of youthful folks, and I don’t know what it’s. At the moment, you will have the vitality and the need to have management over your digital area, and Obsidian makes that simple. So in that sense, we’re a bit much less prescriptive about what the interface ought to appear like, although we’re making an attempt to make it somewhat bit extra approachable to nonetheless retain infinite depth. It’s such as you’re going to the seaside: we need to make the shallow waters somewhat extra accessible for people who find themselves coming into it, however then you may swim so far as you want, as deep as you want, into the complexity of Obsidian. Discovering the correct steadiness between these two issues is sort of difficult, and it’s one thing we’re all the time engaged on.

As I discussed, I used Roam, then I used Obsidian, after which I used Mem. Now I exploit one thing known as Capacities. Clearly I’ve an enormous downside. I’m engaged on it in remedy. However I’m interested by how sticky Obsidian is. It’s free to get began, however I think about a number of folks abandon their vaults after solely creating just a few free notes. What makes folks depart and what makes folks keep?

We truly don’t know what number of customers Obsidian has. We don’t understand how sticky it’s as a result of we don’t have any analytics. It’s very privacy-oriented, so we don’t monitor something about our customers. We don’t know what immediately causes somebody to churn or no matter. We choose to not monitor these issues. Additionally, the info doesn’t need to be exported. If Obsidian went out of enterprise sometime, you’d nonetheless have the app in your laptop. Even in case you selected to not use it, you don’t even need to launch the app. You don’t need to export something. This is without doubt one of the huge points folks have had with different instruments which have both gone out of enterprise or been acquired by personal fairness companies that begin tightening the screws and growing the pricing over time — you’re feeling such as you’re locked in and you may’t do something about it.

With Obsidian, your information is there. I feel the sentiments of freedom and safety are paradoxically fairly sticky as a result of although you will have all of your information, you could possibly simply… Personally, I’m always modifying my Obsidian recordsdata not in Obsidian. I’ll use code editors and different instruments to do mass modifications to lots of of recordsdata. You possibly can run Python scripts in your information. You possibly can form of do something as a result of they’re simply recordsdata on the finish of the day.

Simply briefly, each file that’s created in Obsidian is a Markdown file that may be opened up in mainly any textual content editor.

Yeah. So it’s not a database within the cloud. It’s not a database in your laptop someplace that different apps can’t entry. It’s actually only a bunch of recordsdata that you could transfer and alter with any app. So sure, it makes it rather a lot simpler to depart the app, but it surely additionally paradoxically provides folks consolation that they’ve that choice at any time.

We’re not making an attempt to be Notion. Notion has raised lots of of hundreds of thousands of {dollars}. I feel it’s wonderful, particularly on the collaboration aspect. It has a whole lot of benefits that make the app higher for sure issues. We’re only a small crew. Our focus is to maintain making the instrument higher and keep small, so long as we’re making sufficient cash to remain afloat.

We’re not making an attempt to take over the world. We’re not making an attempt to be the following Microsoft. That makes it rather a lot simpler to make long-term selections that we really feel are higher for ourselves or for our customers. It’s the instrument that we need to use all day lengthy. So, it’s okay if folks depart. And completely different folks have completely different brains and completely different approaches to considering, so possibly they need to depart. Possibly that might be higher for them.

Let me ask you about one problem I’ve had utilizing instruments like this. I wrote a few years in the past about how I had spent years linking and tagging all my notes, reviewing them on a fairly common foundation, and nonetheless not feeling like I used to be getting a ton of insights from that course of.

I used to be apprehensive that these instruments is usually a substitute for considering relatively than an enhancement as a result of in case you spend all day tending to your digital backyard, you may not spend as a lot time simply strolling down the road and giving your mind the prospect to breathe and ideate. Was I simply utilizing these instruments incorrectly, or do you suppose that productiveness instruments can generally be counterproductive for folks?

I feel they’ll generally be designed with anti-patterns which can be explicitly about that. Some corporations have metrics that they monitor, just like the variety of lively customers, however how do they outline lively? So now they’re sending you notifications to remind you to come back again to the app so that you just do regardless of the factor is. That’s a part of the explanation we’re not eager about having any of this information as a result of we don’t actually need to be monitoring our customers on this means or incentivizing them to create utilization the place none is required. If you happen to use Obsidian all through the day and you’ve got these random concepts you simply need to drop inside your every day word, it is best to be capable of do this and never get sucked into this factor that’s making an attempt to interact you.

There are lots of people who preserve making an attempt new apps and nothing sticks for them or they get caught up within the group and beautification of their notes. I feel that may occur in any app. I hear about this, normally, and I don’t know what the trigger is. My sense is that it has nothing to do with the apps until they’re actually making an attempt to engagement-bait you in these bizarre methods. I feel it’s kind of an affliction of the digital age. This stuff are so malleable that it scratches an itch that we now have in our mind to optimize. For sure individuals who love fixing puzzles or doing Sudoku, it’s form of addictive in a means which may not be essentially the most wholesome.

I’m not precisely positive the way to remedy that. The way in which I attempt to handle that, not less than in my private life, is being very conscious of how the enterprise of many of those apps works and the way they’re making an attempt to seize your consideration and time. So, I’m all the time disabling notifications for every little thing, making an attempt to spend so much of time strolling in nature, doing woodworking, cooking, and different actions that I discover restorative. Then, that makes my Obsidian time really feel extra rewarding, productive, and helpful as a result of — productive shouldn’t be the correct phrase. I simply have issues to jot down about. I’ve a life that I’m making an attempt to dissect. “Oh, what occurred in the present day?” or “What downside am I making an attempt to resolve?” And in case you don’t have these different issues occurring, you then don’t have one thing to jot down about, and also you’re now within the area massaging one thing. That is most likely extra of a query for a psychologist to resolve, however I do see it, and I don’t know what the reply is essentially.

Properly, let’s ask the Decoder questions. You’ve talked about that you’ve got seven full-time staff. How is Obsidian structured? That appears like a fairly flat construction.

We have now two people who find themselves engaged on group associated issues full time — primarily customer support and plugin assessment. One of many ways in which we scale is that we now have very lively communities on Discord, Reddit, and elsewhere. There’s a whole lot of consumer assist, so customers assist different customers, which is sweet as a result of it implies that we don’t need to have as many customer support folks on workers.

Then, we now have three full-time engineers, me, after which Erica, who works on advertising and marketing, group, and different issues. I suppose I’m the one one who’s a educated designer, so I find yourself doing a whole lot of UX design, advertising and marketing associated issues, and our web-facing stuff. However lately, I’ve additionally taken on extra. I’ve picked up a whole lot of engineering abilities and have been having fun with collaborating extra on the technical aspect as effectively.

It sounds such as you’re giving your self a whole lot of duties. I’d watch out of that.

It’s okay. I used to be beforehand working this startup that had 45 folks. It was a really completely different factor. I used to be in conferences all day lengthy, day by day, 10 hours a day. At Obsidian, we now have one assembly per yr, so my time could be very —

Wow. Targets! You simply made lots of people very jealous proper now.

I feel it’s achievable. We use Discord and our Slack equal to talk as a crew on a regular basis, and we’re in there persistently speaking. However by way of synchronous conferences, it’s fairly uncommon. I feel a part of it’s as a result of everybody’s a consumer of the app, is aware of what one thing Obsidian-y seems like, and we usually solely have one or two targets at any given time. So, it makes issues fairly self-motivated so far as how the crew features.

We’ve talked about that Obsidian is exclusive in a whole lot of methods. There’s no signup requirement. You possibly can obtain and use it at no cost. You guys don’t even know what number of customers you will have. Individuals can create a limiteless quantity of notes. How is that sustainable for you?

Obsidian has just a few completely different income sources. One is Obsidian Sync. You most likely need to use Obsidian on a number of gadgets, so a cellphone, iPad, or laptop. As a result of the recordsdata are native to your system, you want a method to preserve these variations in sync. You possibly can completely sync your recordsdata utilizing Dropbox, iCloud, or Google Drive. There are various completely different providers on the market, however we make our Obsidian Sync service. We predict it’s the very best one as a result of it’s completely built-in into the app, and it has just a few options like model historical past. It’s end-to-end encrypted, so it’s far more safe than a whole lot of the opposite choices by default. So, that’s one among our main income drivers.

Publish is one other service the place you may take your notes in Obsidian and make a web site out of it. Then, we even have a pair donation packages, that are Catalyst and our business license the place customers who need entry to the beta variations or need to help us as a result of they imagine in what we’re doing can primarily ship us cash.

So, these are the primary ways in which we generate profits. We have now merch, but it surely’s truly all breakeven, so we don’t actually make any revenue from that. The factor is, as a result of the crew is small, we don’t want mountains of money. It’s simply us and a few computer systems, so it’s not like there’s a considerable amount of bills. So it really works.

Sure. It’s been worthwhile just about since day one. Since I feel even earlier than Sync launched — the donation program, Catalyst, was the very first thing that launched — so it’s been worthwhile for 5 years.

Let me ask the opposite huge Decoder query. How do you make selections at your organization? Do you will have a framework?

We have now this manifesto that you could take a look at. In a means, I feel that’s our strongest driver as a result of it describes our values, that are to make this app that’s tremendous personal, tremendous customizable, and sturdy round these recordsdata that hopefully you’ll be capable of personal for the remainder of your life. The group is all the time driving us in the direction of the following huge downside.

For instance, final yr one of many huge issues we began engaged on was Internet Clipper. Plenty of different apps have one thing prefer it. I feel Evernote was most likely the primary one which did a very good job with this again within the day. Then, there are providers like Pocket that shut down just lately. Lots of people in the neighborhood had been saying, “Hey, this can be a main gap, a niche for Obsidian. All these different apps have nice net clipping instruments.” So, we constructed one. I feel that whether or not it’s by way of plugins or by way of simply basic complaining from the compute group, we form of know what the largest gaps are. So, we all the time have a basic concept of what we need to work on subsequent.

However there’s additionally a self-motivated side to it. As a result of our crew makes use of all of it day, somebody will change into an advocate or champion for one thing. For instance, I’m all the time utilizing the iOS app, and I’m all the time coming throughout edge circumstances the place I really feel like there’s an excessive amount of friction. There are different folks on our crew who use Android, use Linux, or who use Obsidian in a barely completely different means. It form of turns into your mission internally.

I don’t suppose that is actually that completely different from different corporations. However it form of turns into your flag to lift with the remainder of the crew and persuade them that this is a crucial downside that we now have to work on now. As a result of the group is so flat, we will make selections very simply. It’s additionally very simple for one individual to go off and prototype one thing for just a few days and present it to the crew and say, “Hey, remedy this downside. Assist me get this polished so we will launch it.”

So, that makes it actually, actually enjoyable. And since we don’t have traders or any top-down strain forcing any deadlines, it’s very self-motivated. I’m positive there are many folks in the neighborhood who want we might launch issues quicker, however we don’t need to quit the liberty, flexibility, and pleasure that we now have constructing it.

Let me finish on just a few questions in regards to the future. Just about each main firm that’s making a productiveness instrument is incorporating some generative AI function or integrating an AI plugin or API. What’s the Obsidian view on AI and productiveness instruments? Will you add options like that?

Up to now, there are not any AI choices constructed into Obsidian besides in Internet Clipper, which is intentional as a result of it lives outdoors of Obsidian itself. In Internet Clipper, we now have a function known as Interpreter that means that you can put in a bunch of prompts or questions on the time you’re capturing a webpage, like if you wish to fill in metadata about that web page or say who the writer is.

Let’s say you’re saving merchandise since you’re doing analysis on what podcasting microphone you need to purchase subsequent. You possibly can seize all of the metadata and specs mechanically simply by placing in a immediate, and it’ll form of save all of that. However that’s residing outdoors of Obsidian and it’s not about changing your considering. I feel the worry I’ve with AI is that I don’t need it to exchange considering in my very own use, the insights that I’m going to collect with a abstract generated by AI.

Now, there are tons of individuals utilizing AI with Obsidian. Due to the plugin structure, AI is by far the preferred class of recent, up-and-coming plugins proper now. There are a whole lot of plugins that individuals are making utilizing AI. Plenty of the LLMs are very educated about Obsidian and its API. You possibly can simply go into Claude and say, “Hey, make me an Obsidian plugin that this or that.” That’s a giant problem for us as a result of there’s a mountain of plugins rising actually shortly that we have to assessment, and it’s occurring quicker than we will sustain with as a result of AI makes it really easy to make plugins.

So, AI is unquestionably getting used. Our philosophy so far as how it might ever make sense for Obsidian is that it has to suit with the rules which can be in our manifesto, which is that it must be personal. We’re not comfy with the concept our customers’ information might be saved in OpenAI servers with out their consent. I feel a whole lot of instruments on the market are simply form of defaulting to this sense that there’s an arms race. We’ve bought to place AI into every little thing. Let’s put somewhat magic button all over the place. I don’t suppose that’s us. We need to give customers confidence that their ideas are theirs, that issues aren’t going for use to coach the following LLM.

That mentioned, I do suppose AI could be actually highly effective for sure makes use of. So the query is, in the long run, can we find yourself giving an API to the plugin group in order that they’ll construct these varieties of functionalities extra simply? Proper now, we’re not engaged on it. We’ve been holding off and watching what’s occurring. We don’t really feel a way of urgency to immediately put all these items in there as a result of, to be trustworthy, the plugin ecosystem is there for you and you are able to do it in case you actually need that. There are issues far more vital to us on the precedence record that we need to work on first, that we might relatively set our time apart for with our restricted capability.

Let’s speak in regards to the medium to long-term way forward for Obsidian. What does it appear like when 95 % of its options are constructed? What do you hope it does that it could actually’t fairly do in the present day?

The sands are all the time shifting. We have now working programs which can be altering. We’re constructed on prime of macOS, Home windows, Linux, iOS, and Android. We have now to maintain Obsidian engaged on all these platforms. That work is unending and difficult. However it’s laborious to think about what would occur first: we run out of concepts and options or one thing radically completely different comes alongside that folks need to use as an alternative of Obsidian. I’ve this perspective that Obsidian shouldn’t be essentially going to final eternally.

There’s going to be a time limit — I don’t know if it’s in 5 years, one yr, 10 years, 50 years — the place we’re not going to be utilizing these very same sorts of apps. I don’t know what’s going to exchange it, or if we’re even going to be utilizing computer systems in the identical means. Interfaces might change very radically. I’m unsure what it’s. I do really feel assured that the recordsdata you create will find yourself being actually vital in that new world. We’re seeing that with AI often because it seems that the entire LLMs communicate Markdown and are utilizing it behind the scenes as a result of it’s simply plain textual content, and that’s what LLMs are good at.

However I don’t know the reply to your query. It’s laborious to think about a world the place we utterly run out of concepts. It appears extra doubtless that we are going to simply die of outdated age as an app. Possibly 5 years from now we could have another concept for an app that we need to work on. However it’s laborious to think about simply working out of issues to work on.

What’s the following factor that you just’re engaged on?

Proper now, it’s a function known as Bases. The concept is that you could retailer properties, or metadata in regards to the present file, in Obsidian notes. For instance, if I’ve a word about Decoder, I’d put the identify of the host and a listing of episodes. For every episode that I need to take notes on, I’d write down which visitors had been on, what date it got here out, or the episode quantity. What Bases means that you can do is visualize a sure form of word as a desk or finally as a Kanban view or one other sort of view. So, it’s like a visualization layer on prime of the info that you have already got. We simply make it very easy to create that database from the underside up.

It’s form of like a backward database as a result of all the info is already in there. You’re simply it and saying, “Present me all notes which have the ‘books’ tag,” for instance, or a hyperlink to “Casey.” Then, I get a desk after which I’ve all my metadata, which I can edit. It’s fairly highly effective in case you’re somebody who enjoys monitoring books that you just learn, or the films that you just watch, the locations that you just go, the articles you’ve learn. You possibly can very simply create these buildings or do challenge administration.

So, we’re having a whole lot of enjoyable with that. It’s been far more well-liked than we anticipated. It’s presently in beta, so hopefully we can be releasing the primary public model within the close to future. Then, I anticipate that we’re going to be engaged on this till the top of the yr and even longer as a result of the suggestions has been so constructive.

Properly, if you wish to ship any of these notes that you just took about me, I can have a look and allow you to know if there are any errors.

Sure, no downside. Simply don’t get too obsessive about tweaking the fonts and every little thing.

[Laughs] I’ll attempt to not. I’m all the time susceptible to doing that. Steph, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us in the present day.

Thanks, Casey. It was nice.

_{Questions or feedback about this episode? Hit us up at [email protected]. We actually do learn each e-mail!}